The Interview, Part One
So I couldn't help but wonder: If Worlds Within Worlds was a comic that was later turned into a TV show, what would comic and TV show be like? What would change?

And as I am entranced by such metatextual examinations, I had to write this. I wrote it in about a day, which for me is record time. In this segment, the producers/head writers of the TV series get together to talk to the writer and artist of the comic. And much fun is had by all. ≈5100 words.


VALERIE RYDER and JONATHAN HELLER, co-executive producers of the television series Paragon.
MICHAEL WINTERS, writer of Aegis (originally Gehirn), on which Paragon is based.
KEVIN ASAKURA, pencils on Aegis.

Q: First, I’d like to welcome all of you to the roundtable…

VALERIE RYDER: Hi.
JONATHAN HELLER: Hey.
MICHAEL WINTERS: It’s good to be here.
KEVIN ASAKURA: They took everything I was going to say.
[laughter]

Q: I suppose congratulations are in order.

JH: Thanks.
VR: I have to say, we really…we continue to be blown away by the response to Paragon. We guessed that there might be a market for the kind of stories Michael and Kevin were telling after the success of movies like—
JH: Like pretty much every superhero blockbuster Hollywood’s come out with—
VR: What Jonathan said. And Heroes, the success of Heroes really gave us hope back when we were wrapping up production on the first seven episodes.
JH: It also made us nervous. We wondered if there was a market for so many stories about superheroes.
MW: I was there for a lot of the midnight panic sessions, so I’ll say to you now what I said to Val and Jonathan then: Paragon is, I think, a different kind of hero story than most of the shows on television. It’s not the sprawling ensemble cast of Heroes or the solo adventures of Smallville or Bionic Woman, it’s definitely a team story, and the universe is…the universe is one where superheroes have been around for a while, but they’re almost—people regard them as quaint, because we know we didn’t quite want to go back to the Silver Age, where masked menaces threaten the city on a weekly basis.
JH: Which was partially to keep the special-effects budget down.
VR: Giant robots from outer space are expensive to animate.
KA: Right. The world of Paragon has calmed down a lot since then. I’m almost inclined to say that it hearkens back to the Golden Age, when you had the heroes fighting ordinary criminals. Robbers, burglars, that sort of thing. Only now the criminals operate on a more global scale.
VR: Paragon’s model of heroes and villains is based heavily on post-9/11 society, I think. And the villains have adapted well to that. I almost want to say “antagonists” here instead of villains. All right, the antagonists have adapted well. They operate behind the scenes, they act more like terrorists than dictators a lot of the time.
JH: And now the heroes are trying to adapt, too, but heroes tend to be a lot less subtle by nature.

Q: Unless it’s Ronin.

JH: [laughs] Unless it’s Ronin, right.
KA: But you only really need one of her. I don’t think you’d want more. Ronin…there are many things deeply wrong with Ronin.

Q: The show still has its share of dramatic fight scenes.

MW: Of course it does. It’s a superhero show.
JH: Beating stuff up is the point.
VR: And we’ve even thrown in a few masked menaces. But—and I think this is true of American society in general, and not just the world we’ve constructed—people are a lot more scared of what they can’t see.
MW: Right. There’s something almost innocent about the villains who stand on skyscrapers and hold the city ransom for the components to build a ray to disintegrate the moon or something.
VR: We played that angle up a lot in “Bygones,” where Scion’s so excited to follow the trail of riddles the villain’s left for her, but nobody else really takes the guy seriously. He’s not as scary as the man with the sniper rifle.
JH: And then it ends badly when Lunar gets frustrated, abandons the silliness, and actually starts killing people.
MW: The “killing people” line, that’s when the villains start to get terrifying.

Q: It’s interesting to hear you say that, Michael. From what I’ve read of Gehirn before you took over, it was almost a throwback to the Silver Age.

VR: It was a bit retro, yeah.
KA: I’ve been with Gehirn since the beginning, so I might as well toss in my two cents here. King Comics was getting a pretty big response with Phalanx, which was definitely a very retro book about the adventures of the Freedom Phalanx. I think they’ve appeared in the show…
JH: They’ve been mentioned. They’re minor characters.
KA: Right. You have the Superman, the Green Arrow, the Flash, the—I can’t remember all the parallels, but it’s a very classic feel. Anyway, Phalanx was doing well enough that the editors tossed around ideas for a spinoff, but one that was powered more by characters than plot. Phalanx was and is a plot-based book, more like DC in the Silver Age. With the spinoff, we originally intended for something more Marvel Silver Age, where you do get a lot of the character and story arcs, and people have to cope with…
VR: With being people. And the challenges of normal life, not just the challenges that the villain of the week throws at them.
MW: At the time, King really wanted to attract more female readers, too. That was a factor.
JH: Young female readers, right?
MW: Right. We knew there was an audience for them; we knew all about the phenomenal market for manga—
VR: Is that why you made one of the title characters Japanese? [laughs]
KA: I think that was Jorge [Ramos, editor-in-chief of King Comics]. He really likes ninjas.
MW: He owns every ninja movie ever made. Even the bad ones.
JH: Which is all of them, right?
MW: Blasphemy! Blasphemy!

Q: So you wanted a retro character-driven book, and you wanted young female readers.

MW: And we wanted ninjas.
KA: We tossed around a lot of ideas, but we hit on the idea of a two-girl team.
MW: Wasn’t it three originally?
KA: It was, but we dropped Vanessa. We didn’t really like her. Well, we didn’t really like her for Gehirn. She’s showed up in Phalanx a few times.

Q: I don’t think I know Vanessa.

KA: Vanessa Abell, also known as Death Girl. She’s your average perky goth who just happens to be an avatar of Death.
MW: I hate Death Girl. Just getting that out there.
KA: We figured that Scion—she was Shift back then, but same character—already had the perky thing down well. And the other two had metahuman origins, so we wanted to stick with that, if we could. Whereas Vanessa’s powers were clearly mystical or godly or what have you. She was also a little too silly.
MW: Well, you could have brought her on board and had Ronin kill her in the first issue.
KA: You’re violent. And she would have been Kage then, anyway. Not Ronin.
MW: Start the book with a bang. That’s what I think.

Q: Getting back to the two-girl team…

JH: We got off-topic there, didn’t we?
KA: You didn’t. We did.
JH: [laughs]
KA: We figured we could make the book as much about their budding friendship as it was about them beating stuff up. Add in the interpersonal relationship element, which seems to be the cornerstone of a lot of comics geared towards girls. We tried out a lot of ideas for the two of them. One of the ones we almost went with was making the two of them rivals in school who are reluctantly forced to team up and discover that they have more in common than they think.

Q: Not quite the direction the book ended up taking.

KA: No. Well, at that point, we liked Phoebe. Shift. We really liked Shift. We liked the idea of telling the story through her eyes, so some of the grimness of the world is muted by her enthusiasm and innocence and you get more of a…does a “postmodern retro” view make any sense?

Q: I think I see what you’re saying.

KA: Good. And we knew that her counterpart would be very, very different than she was, someone who was a lot more realistic and saw the downside of heroism. I think Zachary [Barron, the creator of Gehirn] originally tossed around the idea of her being a prostitute, but Evangeline [Taylor, Gehirn/Aegis’s editor] shot that down violently.
MW: She posted a huge sign on the company bulletin board saying “NO HOOKERS,” yeah. I remember that.
KA: Evangeline has an agenda about that sort of thing.
VR: I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I mean, if you look at what a lot of female superheroes have to go through…just check out “Women in Refrigerators.” A lot of it’s played for cheap angst.
KA: No, you’re right, and we were worried about falling into that trap with Keiko. But we’ve been lucky to have good writers both on the comic and the show, and we’ve kept her—you know, I really want to say “insane” here.
JH: How about “painfully realistic”?
KA: That too. But she’s clearly not balanced, and the fact that she doesn’t realize it all the time is what keeps her grounded and a little bit heartbreaking.
Right. Back to the original question.
So then we hit on the idea of her being a small-time crook, which somehow spiraled into making her a really dysfunctional ex-assassin when we kept adding to her backstory.
MW: The Iron Age counterpart to Phoebe’s Silver Age. I was on the editorial board at the time, and I pushed for that one.
KA: Because you hate the Silver Age.
MW: No, I recognize the debt comics owe to the Silver Age, I just—
KA: —hate it.
MW: [laughs] I’m reluctant to kick up any more fanboy furor, or to piss off Jorge, but…no. I don’t like the Silver Age. It’s entertaining, but it’s dated.

Q: Val and Jonathan, when you kicked off the TV series, you added Edgewalker into the mix almost right away. I don’t think he appears in the comics until the fourteenth issue, at least.

VR: I like Edgewalker. He’s so cute.
JH: We liked the idea of a straight man to the two extremes that Phoebe and Keiko represent. He literally comes from a place of darkness in much the same way that Keiko does, and he has his demons—literally. All of my metaphors are becoming really literal here.
VR: But Blake still has a really dry sense of humor, and he’s more aware of what it means to be human. He’s socially awkward, but he’s not half-autistic.

Q: Your choice of words there reminds me of the direction you took with Keiko at the beginning of the series, when she really—she did come across as autistic to some degree.

JH: It’s more severe on the show than it was in the comic, yes.
VR: We consulted a ton of psychologists, crisis counselors, and social workers when we were writing her, and they really helped us nail down the fact that she just—she honestly doesn’t have properly formed responses to almost anything. No sense of humor, no sense of tact. She’s almost inhuman, and it’s a little scary.
JH: But Phoebe tries hard to humanize her.
VR: Oh yeah. I love the scene in episode three where they’re sitting on the couch and Phoebe’s trying to explain Seinfeld to her. I think it’s one of my favorite moments on the show.
But going back to Blake, if that’s okay—

Q: Of course.

JH: She loves Blake.
VR: I really do. He’s a good foil to both of the girls, and there’s just something…I don’t know if it’s archetypal or what, but there’s something powerful about the three-man team. Also, since we decided to cut GEHIRN from the plot entirely, we really needed someone who’d be the strategist, the planner, the guy running surveillance. Phoebe’s bright but impulsive. She’s a good tactician, but her long-term plans are pretty much “find the bad guy and stop him from hurting anyone else.” Keiko’s a soldier, not a strategist—she doesn’t really know how to handle a team. And we needed someone who was tech-savvy, too. Phoebe’s about as good with computers as you’d expect a teenage girl to be, and Keiko’s never really needed them.

Q: Cutting GEHIRN from the plot was a controversial move, as I recall.

VR: Hugely so.
JH: The sessions with the people at King got a little nightmarish. I don’t know him that well, but Zachary comes across as something of a conspiracy nut—
MW and KA: He is.
JH: [laughs] And he was very attached to this idea of a group controlling heroes and villains alike.
VR: The concept was interesting, because it raises a lot of questions about the distinction between good and evil, and if they really are just two sides of the same coin.
JH: But we felt there were other ways to explore that, and we’d originally pitched the show based on Michael’s work, after the comic became Aegis. Michael definitely has a flair for conspiracy, too—I mean, just look at Chase—but he had a variety of groups weaving plots within plots within plots, to quote Dune, and I loved how the struggle between all these schemers played out. It was less—it was less everything under one umbrella, and there was more of a challenge for the antagonists, not just for the heroes.
MW: They like me! They really like me!
VR: We were also concerned about going the GEHIRN route because Heroes was doing something similar with Linderman and his organization, or so it seemed at the time.
JH: Which would make Nicholas Walker our Sylar?
VR: [laughs] Sure, why not?

Q: You kept Walker, though.

VR: We had to keep Walker.
KA: But you took out Aeon.
VR: We did. Aeon was too expensive.
MW: You could have gotten one of those cheap pterodactyl costumes.
VR: Because those just scream scary world-destroying near-omnipotent being.
JH: Walker’s pivotal to Phoebe’s growth. We also stuck Walker in there a little earlier; there was a little bit of foreshadowing in the comic, but we wanted more. We were greedy.
KA: Walker was an import from Phalanx.

Q: I didn’t know that.

MW: The planeswalkers originally showed up in Phalanx, yeah. Felix [North, writer for Phalanx] really liked the idea of unimaginably powerful beings playing a complicated kind of chess game with the universe, since they were too powerful to move directly against each other. I liked it, too.
KA: We stuck him in to see what it would do to sales, and then Evangeline hit on the idea that Phoebe was Walker’s child. We’d left the question of Phoebe’s father open-ended in the original outline to let future writers play with it, but it worked very well with what we’d established about Phoebe’s powers so far.
MW: And you gave her one of her long-running neuroses.
KA: Well, nobody wants to end up like their parents.
JH: Especially when one of your parents is an evil demigod.
KA: I’d argue about Walker being evil. I think he’s so determined to see the big picture, the greater good, that he forgets about the human cost along the way.
MW: Forgets, or just doesn’t care, as long as he saves more people than he kills.
KA: Right.

Q: You made quite a few cuts from the source material. What was the thought process behind that? Michael, was there anything you wish they’d left in?

MW: I’m going to let them field the question first.
VR: A lot of times, the issue was cost. I mean, we’ve been talking a lot about modernizing the genre, updating it, but the fact is that it’s hard to do comic book style special effects on the small screen and make them look good and still come in under budget.
JH: Budgeting was a nightmare.
VR: We gave the network nightmares, I’m sure. I don’t know if we’ve had an episode coming in under a million dollars.
JH: So yes, a lot of the things we cut were due to budgetary constraints. Aeon was mentioned. The Japan arc was gutted. We turned the basic events of the story—rescuing Ardent, meeting Keiko’s family, the heroes talking about their place in the world and taking some time off—we transformed them into our Christmas story. I think it worked well. Phoebe didn’t always transform into a puddle when she got exhausted, mostly because the transitional stage between human and puddle is hard to animate. So sometimes she became a little transparent, or started glowing pink, or developed other weird features. The basic idea was still that she couldn’t always control her body’s shape.
VR: We played that up for comedy in a few episodes, too. Like the homecoming episode—I think episode four? “For Whom the Belle Tolls”?
JH: Episode four, yeah.
VR: And the funny thing is that Phoebe still has the most potential love interests out of all of them, despite her fears about not being human enough to have a real relationship.

Q: The talk about relationships reminds me of the drastic changes you made to Skye’s role.

VR: We had to streamline Skye. My god, it was just too much.
MW: I did the same thing when I took over writing Aegis.
KA: You mean you wrote him off.
MW: I gave him to Felix. He works better on Phalanx, anyway.
JH: Michael’s version of Skye was the one we ultimately went with. He’s a double agent—we tooled around with Drakotek, we made it Isame’s main mortal agency in Paragon—but yeah, Skye’s been working for Isame all along.
VR: We added in the twist that she really did want her niece to have something like a normal relationship, which is why she ordered Skye to get close to Keiko specifically.
KA: You made Isame into Yenta.
VR: Kind of. [laughs] It makes his relationship with Keiko a lot creepier, which…well, Jonathan really liked it. And Michael did, too, when we brought him in to write “Dirty Little Secrets.”
MW: I hadn’t written for television much before that, but it was a great experience. I’d love to do it again, and I’m going to get to, it seems.
JH: We’re bringing him in for three episodes next season.
MW: Jonathan and I wanted to make it clear that Keiko had no idea what she was getting into, that she was sort of developing an unhealthy dependency, and that Skye was just sort of substituting in for the other male authority figures who’d been in her life before that. It made viewers terribly uncomfortable, I think.
VR: We got a lot of letters and calls about those two. Most of our female viewers were urging us to get Ronin to dump him. It was funny because Miyuki Yoshino (Keiko/Ronin) and Daniel Keyes (Skye) were flirting a lot on the set. But I have to give a lot of credit to Miyuki—she took the chemistry they had and twisted it once the cameras started rolling.

Q: Getting back to an earlier question—Michael, is there anything you wish they’d left in?

MW: You know, I like that the show’s taken a different direction than the comic has. If people page through the comic, they aren’t necessarily going to know what’s going to happen next on the show. It’s the same characters, and the universe is pretty similar, but the stories are just different enough. I love seeing the way Val and Jonathan change things.
That being said, some of the dimension-hopping arcs have been my favorites to write and read, and I know they aren’t going to make it to the small screen, just because they’re guaranteed to make the budget explode. I’m still hoping for a mini-arc set in another dimension, but I guess I have to wait and see.
JH: I like the dimension-hopping stuff, too. There have been some great character arcs during those, especially when Michael wrote about the group going into the godsrealms. I think Phoebe really came into her own during that arc, and Blake’s interaction with Azilerthan was priceless. I’d love to recapture moments like that.
VR: We’re trying to see what we can do about adventures in other dimensions. Kevin’s pencils are wonderfully expressive—
KA: Thanks.
VR: But it’s hard to translate his creativity to television, sometimes.
KA: My style’s definitely more exaggerated, I admit. Phoebe’s my favorite character to draw for that reason. Her powers are so colorful and explosive, and I can do all sorts of crazy things with her body. Her body language…I can make it insanely expressive. I can literally make her droop when she’s sad. And when she’s happy, she can start glowing. I love it.
MW: But you’ve done some great work with reductionism, too, like the panels where you show the inner dialogue between Blake and Azilerthan. Really stark lines, a black, white, and red palette, and lots of rigidly geometrical shapes. It was cool.
KA: You’re going to make me blush.

Q: So when the story begins, there are various factions trying to seize control of Paragon. The planeswalkers and their allies, Chase, Nimue. Do the various plots ever get confusing? Did you worry that the fans would be confused?

VR: We did, a little. Then we looked at the official forums.
[laughter]
VR: Sometimes I think our fans know the continuity better than we do. They’re very good at playing connect-the-dots. They’ve made connections we’ve never thought about, and then we go back and look at the episodes and think “Wow. That could have worked.”
JH: Plenty of shows with Byzantine plotlines have been extremely successful. Look at Lost. But in all seriousness, we think we did a good job of making it comprehensible. Nimue was a major player for a while, but she dropped out mid-season. We set her up as a red herring of sorts. Then you have Walker, who was really the mover and shaker for the latter half of the season before he burned out his connection to the primal force. You have Chaos and to some degree Isame working against him. Judgment appears to be dead.

Q: Appears to be?

VR: You’ve said too much!
JH: Crap.
MW: Well, she’s as dead as any near-godlike being can be. How’s that?
KA: You’re going to make the forums explode.
MW: Now you know my cunning plan.

Q: And then there’s Chase.

JH: Next season is Chase’s season, definitely. He was sort of lurking in the shadows in the last one, but now he’s going to start to take the spotlight.
VR: Very definitely. There’s also a character called Graydon we’re introducing. He hasn’t appeared in the comic, but Michael says he’s stealing him.
MW: He’s...imagine Lenin as a metahuman-rights activist. And that’s all I’m allowed to say about that, I think.
KA: Sure, Michael’s all over Graydon, but does he want to do the robot dinosaur car?
MW: I’m not writing in a robot dinosaur car.
KA: But it’s more fun for me to draw a robot dinosaur car than it is to keep drawing Greg [Roland, who portrays Chase on the television series]. I love Greg, but I’ve been drawing him too much.

Q: Robot dinosaur car?

MW: Kevin wants Blake’s sidekick to be a robot dinosaur car. Now that Phoebe has Olivia and Keiko has her school full of psychics, he thinks it’s time for Blake to have a sidekick, too.

Q: Speaking of which, will the second season see the introduction of Keiko’s school and Phoebe’s charge?

VR: Yes. We’ve already cast our Olivia. Her name is Shelley Long, and she’s a brilliant young actress. She and Felicia Davies (Phoebe/Scion) get along famously.
JH: Felicia gets along with everyone.
VR: She’s really a lot like her character that way—she’s just a very bright and cheerful person. We all adore her.
JH: We’re streamlining the school’s origin a little, but it’s also going to be in there, probably towards the tail end of the season. Once Keiko’s had more time to become more emotionally aware.

Q: Is there anything else about next season that you can share with us?

VR: Tom Caruso (Roger Golden/Aurum) and Patrick McCourt (Mike Anderson/Phoenix) are going to be regulars next year, and we’ve signed on Samantha Blackwell (Selena Golden/Argentum) and Gia Tarly (Vicky/Roc) for recurring roles. We would have been happy to have Sam and Gia as regulars, but they have scheduling conflicts for part of the season.
JH: The first season was a lot about Phoebe’s journey, Phoebe coming into her powers and heritage; this season, we’re going to see her struggling with the burden her birthright places on her.
MW: At least one of the episodes I’m penning revolves around Keiko’s quest for…I’m hesitant to say redemption, because I’m not even sure if she knows she wants that, but for a purpose to her life beyond protecting Phoebe and Blake and fighting her family.
VR: Blake’s arc has to do a lot more with accepting the darkness in himself. He and Phoebe have similar character arcs that way.

Q: Does that mean we’ll be seeing a return of Azilerthan? It seemed like Blake had gotten rid of him by the end of the season.

VR: [pauses] He did, yes. But…
JH: Azilerthan’s too interesting of a concept to abandon entirely. We’ll leave it at that for now.

Q: Michael and Kevin, I know the comic’s headed in a slightly different direction now…

KA: With the World of GEHIRN arc? Well, King’s doing a massive “what-if” event, where each creative team’s coming up with an alternate universe to play with for about four issues or so. We’re going to see what reader response is to each of the alternate universes, and the most popular one’s probably going to get spun into a miniseries.
MW: Or something longer, yes. But the World of GEHIRN is an idea I’ve been toying with for a while, where we really see Phoebe’s mother Anne coming into her own. It focuses a little more on the older generation, although you do get to see a lot of the cast in…sometimes in very different roles.
KA: Just wait until you see what we did to Phoebe and Keiko.
MW: [laughs] Yeah, the letters column should be interesting.

Q: We’re almost out of time, so let me field one more question. I’ve gotten a pretty good sense of who your favorite heroes are from this. Who are your favorite villains?

VR: Oh, that’s a good one.
JH: I’m very fond of Walker, although in some ways, I like the Walker you’re going to see next season more than the one in the first season.

Q: Hunter Matheson (Nicholas Walker) is coming back?

JH: Hunter’s going to be a recurring, yeah. He’s lost his powers, so now he’s returned to photography and he’s moved in with Anne, which Phoebe hates. And he’s…I’d describe him as a little bit of a recovering junkie. He knows he did horrible things, and he really does regret a lot of them now that he really knows all he wrought, but he still remembers what all that power felt like, and he misses it.
VR: That’s a really tough question for me. I have fun writing Azilerthan’s dialogue, and I have a soft spot for Nimue because I wanted to be a witch-queen when I grew up—
JH: I think you’ve achieved your goal, Val.
[laughter]
VR: Does Donovan count as a villain?
MW: [groans] Now him, him you could have left out of the series.
VR: We thought about it, but then Aidan Caldwell (Donovan) came in and read for the part, and we knew we had to put him in somehow. We limited his power a lot, though; we made him an almost malignant dying god instead of a hyperactive insane one. A little more outwardly cruel, and his insanity’s a lot less cheerful. He’s a lot more—a lot more gothic, almost. And we made Nathan more nightmarish, too.
JH: The network was not terribly easy about Donovan and Nathan.
VR: They liked Donovan and Nathan better than they liked Sayre.
MW: Who’s my favorite.
KA: Please tell me he’s staying dead this time.
MW: Maybe.
VR: We cut out the crossdressing. We had to.
MW: Oh, I understand why. Zachary had…if we’re going to stick with comic analogies, Sayre’s definitely the Joker to Ronin’s Batman. Zachary wrote him as more of the clownish Joker, the guy with the maniacal laugh and the weird physical tics. My Sayre comes more from Arkham Asylum. Keep in mind that this isn’t a perfect analogy, but we see him through Keiko’s eyes, and Keiko sees him as the boogeyman, basically. The monster under the bed. The personification of her dark side, almost, which ties back into the Joker thing. There’s a really interesting limited series starring Sayre and Phoebe that I’ll be writing in the fall as part of King’s Omniverse event. Not everyone’s going to like it, but I’m excited.
KA: He’s sent me the storyboards for the first two issues, and it’s great stuff.
MW: And it’ll look great.
KA: You’re going to make me blush again. I feel like a schoolgirl.
[laughter]
KA: I guess it’s my turn now? I like Judgment. She’s one of my favorites to draw, because I love the metallic aspects and the death’s-head imagery and the mechanized parts, and I love how she’s the embodiment of order perverted. But she wins a lot of points with me for style alone. I keep asking Michael to bring her back.
MW: I really do try to keep the characters I kill dead for good.
JH: We have a similar policy on the show.
VR: But there are exceptions.
JH: Of course. But I will say this. The more heroic they are, the less likely it is that they’ll be resurrected.
VR: [laughs] Yeah, the good guys stay dead.

Q: And on that cheerful note, I think we’ll wrap things up. Thanks so much for making the time to talk with us. It’s been a pleasure, and you’ve given us a lot to think about.

MW: The forums are going to explode.
KA: [laughs]
VR: Really, though, I enjoyed this roundtable a lot. Maybe we’ll have another one at the end of season two.

Q: I’d like that.

JH: Me too. Until then, thanks.
KA: Thanks so much.
MW: This was a lot of fun.
VR: See you next year!